Friday, August 31, 2018

Discussion: When you are NOT the target audience


This Week’s Topic: When You are not the target audience. 

There are many, many adult YA readers, and I am one of them. Just because I am not not the target audience, doesn't mean I cannot enjoy the book. However, when I see adult readers say they found the book "a little juvenile", I sigh and roll my eyes, because guess what? This book was not written for you.


I think it's important for someone, who is not the intended audience, to keep in mind, that they are reading a book meant for readers younger than themselves.

The characters are young in a YA book. They are teens, and teens vary in maturity. When I was teaching, I saw kids, who lived a happy-go-lucky life, and kids, who had to pick up the slack for absent or ill parents. Their lives and responsibilities were really different, and therefore, they were not at the same exact level of maturity. A lot of them would ask how they compared to my daughter, and that was not fair, because different parenting can yield different results too. It's not wrong, just different, and I am sure all those kids grew up to be responsible adults at some point.

Depending on the character's circumstances, they may have had to grow up faster. That doesn't mean if an author wrote a character, who seems younger, that it's wrong.

I have also seen people say 14-year old characters seen "too young". Fourteen years old is young! Maybe they are comparing the characters to how they remember themselves at that age. Regardless, not all teens grow at the same rate - mentally, physically, or emotionally.

My other beef is when they comment on how the teens speak. I constantly see this in reviews for John Green books. I spent 12 years teaching in a high school. I contacted with over 150 teens per day, and some were more well spoken than I was. I think my own daughter as a teen sounded more sophisticated than I did at times. Bottomline: there are variations in how teens speak, which could be due to where they live, how they live, the caliber of classes they take -- there are many factors to consider.

If you read my reviews, you may have noticed that I don't really comment on that sort of thing, because I understand that the books were not written for me.

Now it's your turn!

What are your thoughts on adult readers questioning the maturity of YA characters? 
Let us know in the comments!

51 comments:

  1. I struggle with this a bit because I want my reviews to reflect my taste and my personal thoughts on a book, but I also want to keep in mind whether I'm the target audience or not. Tbh, I don't read that much YA anymore anyway. But yeah, I agree with everything you said about how different teens mature at different rates, and it's good to have books that are at different levels of maturity as well.

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    1. I think I am less judgmental of the adult reviewers, who acknowledge they are not the intended audience prior to calling into the question the maturity of the teen protagonist. I am a lot harsher on adult characters, especially ones closer to my age, but even then, sometimes the immaturity of the character is part of the plot, so that the character can change over the course of the book.

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  2. This one is tricky. If I enjoy a book, I'll say I enjoyed it. If I hate a book - for whatever reason including the juvenile behaviour of the characters - then I'll say it too.
    In the case of YA, I'll make a point to state that I realise I'm not the target audience etc but it doesn't change the reading experience for me. Seeing as so many adults read YA fiction, I think it's important to know which ones can work for mature readers and which ones are better left to the intended readership.

    That said, I find it easier to just avoid contemporary YA and this is one of the principal reasons why I avoid it. I know I'm far more likely to struggle reading it and more likely to actually dislike the book. However, every now and again one tempts me - like really tempts me and I read it rather than just add it to the TBR - and I'm either reminded why I don't read contemporary YA or I'm tempted to read another, lol.

    Your reviews have prompted me to add a fair few to the watch list but I haven't been brave enough to take another dive into the YA-contemp pool yet! :)

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    1. At least you acknowledge you are not the target, and know that YA contemporaries don't tend to work for you because of this. But I have seen reviewers shred characters as acting juvenile, and well, 15 or so still qualifies as being in the kid zone. I sort of expect to see a range of behaviors from my past experience working with teens, and am usually ok, if I see them grow over the course of the book.

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    2. I'm with you. Shredding a book for a character acting like a kid when they are a kid just isn't fair. :)

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  3. I mostly stopped reading YA a few years back because they no longer suited my tastes ie the tropes, the soulmates at 15, and teen angst got a bit wearing for me personally. I kind of avoided them until recently but now I use the Goodreads reviews and blog reviews to be more selective about what I read to avoid that problem and it works well!

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    1. It's good that you do your research and know exactly what will or won't work for you. Most likely, you won't be one of those readers complaining about a teen character being a teen

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  4. YES! I’m very aware that I’m not the target audience when I read kids’ books. Sometimes I get irritated at the characters’ behavior, but I try to point out in my review that I’m not the target audience. Kids might not have an issue with the behavior. Reviewing kids’ books is hard because the majority of the people who read my blog are adults. I’m always trying to figure out if a book would appeal to kids AND adults.

    Aj @ Read All The Things!

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    1. An interesting point to keep in mind, and I think if you phrase it that way in a review, that perhaps adult readers might find the behavior such a way, it seems more fair to the author. I think it could be really difficult keeping that in mind, when assigning star ratings.

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  5. I agree with you SO HARD on this! Teens are so much more complex than society in general gives them credit for, and I appreciate that YA shows that complexity in a way other media does not. I always hate when I'm reading a review of a YA book by an adult reader and they complain because the book was "dramatic"... for me, being a teen WAS dramatic! Thanks for this discussion, Sam. <3

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    1. You just perfectly articulated a super important idea!!! The one challenge of working with teens are that they are dealing with so many emotions and the stress of straddling childhood and adulthood, AND that they are not all at the same exact place on that timeline. They may be experiencing something for the first time, and it may very well be the best or worst thing they have experienced so far.

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  6. I don't really think about this, but I also don't expect the characters to act like adults either. I did find myself thinking while reading the Red Queen books "You are so stupid, Mare!" and then "You are so stupid, Cal!" but I didn't really see that due to an age thing. They were just acting stupid. My reviews for the series haven't been published yet (they're scheduled for the last week of September) but I do comment on the reviews about how I see them grow as people, even though they sometimes make some stupid mistakes.

    Maybe the comments about them being juvenile is because they don't hang around too many people of those ages? I don't know.

    I've written a lot of Legend fanfiction, and Day and June span a huge age range in that story. I wrote one fanfic where I started writing them when they were age 10, and then I have another fanfic where they are both 27 years old. Same characters, but I don't write them the same way. There's a fanfic that I'll be working on more in September where I'm writing them at 27 and there's another character that's age 10 and... obviously the 10 year old is not going to behave like the 27 year olds in the story.

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    1. It's the adult readers, who question their behaviors being appropriate for their age, and I think, in general, it's important to acknowledge that there isn't one way a teen, or any person for that matter, should be. Life experiences affect a person's mental age so much. But yes, a 10 year old and a 27 year old should be quite different, but you can have teens, who are more tween-like and others, who are more adult-like, since it's a period a great growth for so many.

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  7. I don’t usually comment on how the teens act, even if I don’t think they are mature, because you are right, we are not the target audience and everyone is different. The only time I ever comment on how teens speak is if I get annoyed at the overuse of slang terms and such, but that is seldom. Great, thoughtful post, Sam.

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    1. Using too much slang is a slippery slope, because it can date the book, so I do think most authors are more thoughtful in their use of slang. I read one book, where the characters kept using the term "scat", and I googled thinking it was a California term. I couldn't find it on my web search, but later saw it in another book in reference to some kind of animal poop. Now I understand what they were saying. LOL. I used to be up on all the east coast lingo when I was teaching, but these days, I have to google. =)

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  8. I think I'm reading less YA because I know I'm not the target audience and there are just some things that I don't get. Which is fine. But you're definitely right about when people complain that the characters sound juvenile, it's like we all have a set of rules that dictate how kids should talk.

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    1. Reading your comment makes me think about the "boxes" people create. I hate the way we are conditioned to create these boxes to stick people in. I work so hard to not do that, and get really, really frustrated when I see others doing it.

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  9. Ah, I think I am one of those people who complains about teens acting older than their ages! I do agree that some teens mature way faster than others. I tend to have issues with the way they talk, but it's more an issue of being pretentious than age - I dislike when adults talk the same way. Sometimes I think teens in books are acting immature or obnoxious, but then I think to myself that the author really nailed the teenage mind, LOL!

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    1. But your problem isn't really them acting older. You just don't like pretentious people, which is not the same thing, if you ask me. Don't get me wrong, I make fun of hipster characters all the time, but like you, it has nothing to do with their age.

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  10. Well Sam I don't comment on this either. It's only if the hero is really immature that he or she grates on my nerves but it can be said in adult books too! Like you said everyone is different ;-) What I don't like is when people judge and say I should not read these books. I want to tell them to "mind their own business" LOL Sophie @bawareofthereader

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    1. YES! Those reviews that start with, "I don't know why I read YA..." drive me up the wall. I have read plenty of adult books, where I have found the actions of the hero/heroine to be not congruent with their age, but then again, I read a lot of romance, and it seems almost requisite in many of these books. 😏 But my ire usually come from something else, when/if I don't like an MC, though, I am probably more judgmental of adult characters than teen characters.

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  11. I don't think that I have ever commented about these things in a review. I know when I am reading YA and I do expect different things from those books than I do for others. I do know that I sometimes have realized that I am not the target audience for a book and will acknowlege that others will probably like the book more than I did. Interesting discussion!

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    1. I feel like if you acknowledge that the book is not written with you in mind, and point out things that didn't work for you as an adult reader, that is more fair and just, than just ranting about the characters, as if the book was meant for you. You know?

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  12. I think it all depends on the genre. Yes, an adult is not the target audience for a YA contemporary high school romance, but some YA like fantasy is cast as YA and up meaning acceptable for YA but you could be 59 and still enjoy it. I do think one has to remember the age of the character regardless of category. An 18 year old is not going to have the wisdom of a 50 year old, but is equally confident of their opinion.

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    1. I have heard a lot of people prefer YA fantasy/SciFi to adult SFF books, and I don't think I see the scathing commentary as much for SFF books, probably because they are not grounded in reality. I see it more for contemporary books, which is my most read genre, and I get that these books are held to a different standard, because they are supposed to be more realistic. But what a good point you raise. Even if an average 18 year old is assumed to not have as much life experience, they believe what they are saying with conviction. Who are we to question their integrity?

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  13. This is always such an interesting topic, because it's certainly true. I think sometimes it's hard for me when a character reads abnormally "off" for their rage (regardless of targeted age range) without any kind of reason? Like- I get that different people develop in different ways, have different thought patterns, etc. And I am totally fine with that as long as it fits the character and story- it's when it doesn't make SENSE that it irks me I guess. Even if the reason is JUST "that's how Susan acts in general", fine! But when it's not acknowledged at all... I get confused, mostly because I don't believe it anymore.

    But I do HATE when people get mad at characters for making dumb decisions or whatever- no one is perfect! Regardless of age, really. Great discussion!

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    1. I admit, I have met many YA characters, who irritated me. However, I usually give them leeway, because they are young. I will make mistakes and bad choices (hopefully less) for the rest of my life. I expect missteps and bad decisions from a teen character, because they do not have as much life experience as an older character. They have to endure these errors in order to learn and grow.

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  14. I try to keep this in mind, I agree, although I've been guilty of saying things like "it was very YA but I liked it"- which I suppose could be an offensive statement to someone, now that I think of it. I mean if I read YA I shouldn't complain about it "being" YA, right? I think by that I just mean that something that seems like it's ALWAYS around in YA- something very trope- ish - but maybe I should word it differently? I don't know.

    You have a great point though. A 14 year old is... young. A huge difference between that and say, 17. Or 19. Nice to be reminded of that. I'll think about this the next time I criticize a book for being "too YA"...

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    1. Being very YA is not a crime, when you're talking about a YA book ;)
      We have started employing spectrums in so much of our understanding about things pertaining to human nature, why not when it comes to the maturity of teens?

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  15. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I had to take a break from YA because I started thinking like this. And really it's more of reading the same thing over and over and getting burned out - but maybe not recognizing that and hitting the book for being what it's supposed to be.

    Also, now that I'm back to reading YA again I'm way more forgiving of their actions (as you said - they're teens! & that's who the books are written for)

    And I think it's (maybe) two things. One - as adults - we can look back objectively and with hindsight. And two - we project our experiences with a given subject. So if it's not how we would act or how we resolved something then we criticize the character - saying they're too immature or whatever. Of course they are! And they are going to screw up. And I see teens begin harsh too so maybe we all need to be a little gentler with characters.

    Having said that, sometimes an author doesn't' explain the characters actions and motivations well enough and it doesn't come across as intended.

    That comment got away from me lol but basically - it's something I've been thinking about. How to separate who the book is for vs the actual writing vs my feelings/experiences that I bring to it.

    Karen @ For What It's Worth

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    1. I definitely think of how I would react/act in that character's situation, but I never think that what I would do is necessarily the "gold standard" (it's probably far from it). When teens react to teen characters, it doesn't bother me as much, because these characters are supposed to sort of be their peers. Though, they may be reading stories that are so far removed from their lives too, and should maybe read with a little more empathy. The author definitely has some responsibility in helping us understand a character's actions. I know I am always looking for reasons why a character did something that is questionable, and I am normally satisfied with the explanations offered by the author. Your last paragraph is another blog post unto itself. I have to think about that bit.

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  16. This is a tough one. I try to always write my honest thoughts on a review, but if it's something age related in a YA book, I think I always mention that it's probably just a 'me thing' since I'm an older reader. I think the main time I tend to be critical of how a YA character is written is maybe if they're supposed to be 16-17 but the writing makes them sound like they're only about 12-13. I know that all kids mature at different rates but it doesn't feel realistic for a sophomore/junior in high school to sound like they're in middle school.

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    1. I feel like authors draw on their own personal experiences when crafting characters, and most like, steal parts of that characters persona from someone they know or knew. I have yet to encounter a YA character, who did not fit "age-wise" from my experience. Granted, for 12 years I was responsible for over 150 teens -- that a lot of kids, and they really are so different from each other in so many ways.

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  17. Oops. I may be guilty of this. I understand that teens mature at different rates due to different circumstances, but I don't usually consider that in novels for some reason. I project what I was like at that age onto the characters and, in a way, expect them to follow my "rules". Which isn't all that realistic thinking back on it now. This is probably why I've been reading less and less YA books. I've found that I have this same problem with a few NA books as well. It's a certain unrealistic expectation that I have for those ages based on how I acted at that age. I've been subconsciously gearing toward more adult books for the last year or two probably trying to "escape" that.

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    1. I think it's human nature to use your own experiences to evaluate the choices characters make. But see, you know it is something that bothers you, and therefore, you opt out of YA books as an adult reader. NA traditionally has a whole other set of problems, that we could sit and talk about all day.

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  18. Oh yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I don't care if an adult reviewer says the character sounds really young or something but they have to be "nice" about it you know? Acknowledge that you're not the target audience, or that you're much older than the MC and all that and I'll take your account into consideration in a different way. But also, I hate when people say John Green characters aren't realistic because no teen talks like that. Like...no. They do. Yes, he has these characters in all his books, so maybe that part bugs you? but that doesn't mean there aren't teens out there who speak that well. There's a teen librarian I know who likes to say that sometimes, a teenager IS the smartest person in the room.

    -Lauren
    www.shootingstarsmag.net

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    1. Maybe it's a combination of an adult reader NOT acknowledging the book is not target towards them, and the reviewer sometimes being merciless that gets to me. Ha! That librarian sounds awesome.

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  19. I actually had to stop reading middle grade books because I found it too juvenile. Like I understand that it's meant to be that way, but it just didn't work for me! But then sometimes even teen fiction can sound juvenile so I guess it can be hard for some adults to judge in those situations? Because they might find it juvenile for their age when it isn't, but sometimes it can even seem juvenile to the teens... Ho hum, difficult discussion...

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    1. At least you found it didn't work for you, and stopped reading it. I see some of the same reviewers complain about the same thing review after review. And I just think they should move on.

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  20. I'm definitely a ways above the target age range for YA, but I've been told I look young enough to "get away with it."

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    1. Ha! I haven't been a teen since the 80s, more or less, but I love thinking back to that time, and also, seeing how young people are affected by issues today.

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  21. Great topic! Personally, I try to cut fictional teens a lot of slack, because geez - they're teens. It's one thing doing something stupid (which still may be understandable because of their age), and another thing entirely "acting like teens". Also, I often read reviews that state "the protagonist was whiny" or "the book was too angsty", and I wonder why people should submit themselves to the torture of reading a YA book then. I mean, they're TEENS. They're SUPPOSED to be wallowing in misery and stuff. Of course, I expect my characters to have some kind of agency too...but if you're more often than not complaining about their angst or something, maybe YA is not the genre for you...

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    1. I actually used to cut all teens (aside from my own) a lot of slack. I say the same exact thing, when I see adult readers complaining about teens, who are pretty much, just acting like teens. Read something else! Part of me admires their perseverance, but another part of me is like stop reading these books you don't seem to like.

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    2. Quote: "I actually used to cut all teens (aside from my own) a lot of slack."
      😂

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  22. Oooooh you raise some good points in this, Sam! I definitely tend to stay away from discussing it in my reviews as well. Each person is different and each person has a different teenage experience so I focus on a lot of other items instead of that. Wonderful post, Sam! :)

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    1. If someone said, "I couldn't connect to the character" or "I didn't understand why they did the things they did", I would be more forgiving than just trying to judge them as if they are an abomination on the face of this teenaged earth. It's very frustrating when people try to put everyone in a box, because I like to thing that we are unique creatures, and therefore, we will be different, and we have different experiences which shape us. It exhausts me.

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  23. I will sometimes say in a review that I'm not the target audience and maybe something that's not for me might work well for a YA audience. And I agree with you about the way that teenagers talk. I've always thought that even if all that pretty and philosophical language isn't the way teenagers actually talk, I think it's often the way they think they talk (I remember my writing was super angsty and philosophical at that age), and they probably do talk this way in moments.

    Nicole @ Feed Your Fiction Addiction

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    1. I totally appreciate an adult saying "might work for teens, but not me", however, I see a lot who do not preface that thought. I also see the ones that start with, "This is so YA" or "This is why I stopped reading YA". Well, if you know that, why do you pick it up?! OMG! I love that! "it's often the way they think they talk" <-- I really think you are onto something here.

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  24. This is something I am very conscious of. I don't read as much YA as I used to but I do find that one of my continual struggles with YA books has been me not relating to the MCs or finding them immature and whenever I review them I always make sure that I state that it's a me thing not the books problem. I have issue with youthful MCs and I always recognise when they're being teenagers even if that bothers me. I think it bothers me more when I see folks criticising MG books and I can't help but question if they've thought through who the target audience is when they're reviewing.

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    1. I appreciate that you are cognizant of it. I feel like some adult readers' have adult expectations for teen/youth characters, which is sort of unreasonable.

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